(Question) Angelo's special

gudou DeleteThis @mail.goo.ne.jp wrote:
> Hi all,

> Angelo is in the uncontrolled region. Can Mark, in the ready region,
> use Unwholesome Bond Sup to put 1 blood on Angelo? My feeling is Yes
> because the Angelo's text does not mension being controlled or not.

I'd say no. Vampires' special abilities never work while they're
uncontrolled.
So, nobody can Unwholesome Bond down to Angelo. Not even a controlled
version of Angelo!

Related question: if Angelo plays Unwholesome Bond at superior, can he
put blood on both Chicago *and* Torrance uncontrolled vampires? Or do
you have to choose which single circle is being used when a Sanguinus
card is played?

salem wrote:
> On 25 Sep 2005 13:37:42 -0700, "kulaid871" <Kulaid871 RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
> scrawled:
>
> >> So, nobody can Unwholesome Bond down to Angelo. Not even a controlled
> >> version of Angelo!
> >
> >Angelo in the uncontrolled region is a blood brother of the Angelo
> >circle, so I would say yes.
>
> I would disagree. The "circle of one" rule makes no mention of what
> the circle is called. And the fact that it uses the word 'one' seems
> to disallow having other members, even if the card shares the same
> name.
>
But see, Angelo in play may play cards as though he were a member of
that circle. Whatever it is called. So I would say that the only one
who can Unwholesome Bond to Angelo is an in-play Angelo.

kulaid871 wrote:
>
> > Related question: if Angelo plays Unwholesome Bond at superior, can he
> > put blood on both Chicago *and* Torrance uncontrolled vampires?
>
> I would say yes, by card text... All Blood brother that play Sang Card
> considers Angelo of ALL circles. Angelo is a blood brother, so why he
> plays card requiring Sang, he is of all blood brother circles. Course
> Brother's blood played at Superior on him wouldn't help anybody say the
> Angelo Circle, which he is the lone member of.
>
"All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo
were a member of any circle."

That's *any* circle, not *all* circles - big difference. "Any" implies
singular, and thus implies that you have to choose which Circle he is
considered a member of when any card requiring Sanguinus is played,
just as Mata Hari must choose whether she plays Create Gargoyle as a
Tremere or Tremere Antitribu.

LSJ wrote:
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > kulaid871 wrote:
> >
> >>>Related question: if Angelo plays Unwholesome Bond at superior, can he
> >>>put blood on both Chicago *and* Torrance uncontrolled vampires?
> >>
> >>I would say yes, by card text... All Blood brother that play Sang Card
> >>considers Angelo of ALL circles. Angelo is a blood brother, so why he
> >>plays card requiring Sang, he is of all blood brother circles. Course
> >>Brother's blood played at Superior on him wouldn't help anybody say the
> >>Angelo Circle, which he is the lone member of.
> >>
> >
> > "All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo
> > were a member of any circle."
> >
> > That's *any* circle, not *all* circles - big difference. "Any" implies
> > singular, and thus implies that you have to choose which Circle he is
> > considered a member of when any card requiring Sanguinus is played,
> > just as Mata Hari must choose whether she plays Create Gargoyle as a
> > Tremere or Tremere Antitribu.
>
> Correct.

LSJ, when superior Unwholesome Bond is played, can it then "see" an
uncontrolled Angelo as a member of any Blood Brother circle even though
his special text is out of play, in more or less the same way that it
can "see" an uncontrolled Torrance or Chicago Blood Brother's circle
even though its circle text is out of play?

Chris Berger wrote:
> kulaid871 wrote:
>
>>>Related question: if Angelo plays Unwholesome Bond at superior, can he
>>>put blood on both Chicago *and* Torrance uncontrolled vampires?
>>
>>I would say yes, by card text... All Blood brother that play Sang Card
>>considers Angelo of ALL circles. Angelo is a blood brother, so why he
>>plays card requiring Sang, he is of all blood brother circles. Course
>>Brother's blood played at Superior on him wouldn't help anybody say the
>>Angelo Circle, which he is the lone member of.
>>
>
> "All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo
> were a member of any circle."
>
> That's *any* circle, not *all* circles - big difference. "Any" implies
> singular, and thus implies that you have to choose which Circle he is
> considered a member of when any card requiring Sanguinus is played,
> just as Mata Hari must choose whether she plays Create Gargoyle as a
> Tremere or Tremere Antitribu.

Correct.

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LSJ wrote:
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > kulaid871 wrote:
> >
> >>>Related question: if Angelo plays Unwholesome Bond at superior, can he
> >>>put blood on both Chicago *and* Torrance uncontrolled vampires?
> >>
> >>I would say yes, by card text... All Blood brother that play Sang Card
> >>considers Angelo of ALL circles. Angelo is a blood brother, so why he
> >>plays card requiring Sang, he is of all blood brother circles. Course
> >>Brother's blood played at Superior on him wouldn't help anybody say the
> >>Angelo Circle, which he is the lone member of.
> >>
> >
> > "All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo
> > were a member of any circle."
> >
> > That's *any* circle, not *all* circles - big difference. "Any" implies
> > singular, and thus implies that you have to choose which Circle he is
> > considered a member of when any card requiring Sanguinus is played,
> > just as Mata Hari must choose whether she plays Create Gargoyle as a
> > Tremere or Tremere Antitribu.
>
> Correct.

( Here goes my Full Circles idea... Too bad, I've been dreaming of
mixing Torrance and Chicago since Bloodlines, thought Angelo could
allow it... Well, he can, but not easily.

To be perfectly clear, a few concrete applications Qs for LSJ :

- Angelo controlled can choose to be, say, Torrance, and do Unwholesome
Bond on all uncontrolled of this circle

- Can controlled Blood Brothers play UB on Angelo as if he was a member
of their circle ?

- Controlled Angelo wants to make UB ; in uncontrolled are both some
Torrance and another Angelo : does he have to choose on which he'll do
the UB or can he do it on both ?

T.I.A.

Orpheus, Master of all things Necromantic

On 25 Sep 2005 13:37:42 -0700, "kulaid871" <Kulaid871.RemoveThis@yahoo.com>
scrawled:

>> So, nobody can Unwholesome Bond down to Angelo. Not even a controlled
>> version of Angelo!
>
>Angelo in the uncontrolled region is a blood brother of the Angelo
>circle, so I would say yes.

I would disagree. The "circle of one" rule makes no mention of what
the circle is called. And the fact that it uses the word 'one' seems
to disallow having other members, even if the card shares the same
name.

Historically, different instances of a given crypt card have been
considered different for pretty much everything except contesting.

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

Emmit Svenson wrote:
> LSJ, when superior Unwholesome Bond is played, can it then "see" an
> uncontrolled Angelo as a member of any Blood Brother circle even though
> his special text is out of play, in more or less the same way that it
> can "see" an uncontrolled Torrance or Chicago Blood Brother's circle
> even though its circle text is out of play?

No. It can see the clan, capacity, Disciplines, sect, and
even the text of Angelo (or any other vampire), but that doesn't
mean Angelo's special applies when he's not in play. It sees Angelo's
circle as the circle it is, not the circle his special would allow
him to mimic.

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> It can see the clan, capacity, Disciplines, sect, and even the text of
> Angelo (or any other vampire), but that doesn't mean Angelo's special
> applies when he's not in play. It sees Angelo's circle as the circle it
> is, not the circle his special would allow him to mimic.
>

May Angelo, acting as a Circle of One, use UB (SAN) to move Blood to
Angelo(s) in your uncontrolled region?

Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:
>> It can see the clan, capacity, Disciplines, sect, and even the text of
>> Angelo (or any other vampire), but that doesn't mean Angelo's special
>> applies when he's not in play. It sees Angelo's circle as the circle
>> it is, not the circle his special would allow him to mimic.
>>
>
> May Angelo, acting as a Circle of One, use UB (SAN) to move Blood to
> Angelo(s) in your uncontrolled region?

For one Angelo, the answer seems obvious:

"All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo
were a member of any circle. Angelo can burn a location as a (D)
action. He cannot have or use retainers. Sterile."

Controlled Angelo is a Blood Brother, Unwholesome Bond requires
Sanguinus. Uncontrolled Angelo has a circle (otherwise no Unwholesome
Bond would work, right?). Ergo Controlled Angelo can play Unwholesome
Bond as if a member of the (anonymous) circle of an uncontrolled Angelo.

It's ambiguous whether "a vampire without a circle designation is his
own circle" means that all uncontrolled Angelos are part of the same
circle, but I'd be inclined to say no. For starts we have an obliquely
related ruling
(http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2821ec2b7cc6079c)
that there can't be two vampires in a "circle of one."

Another reason I'd give is that there's a way to express that all
Angelos are in the same circle - by printing on the card a circle name
not used by any other vampire. And they didn't do that.

crispy wrote:
> Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:
>> May Angelo, acting as a Circle of One, use UB (SAN) to move Blood to
>> Angelo(s) in your uncontrolled region?
>
> For one Angelo, the answer seems obvious:
>
> "All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo
> were a member of any circle. Angelo can burn a location as a (D)
> action. He cannot have or use retainers. Sterile."
>
> Controlled Angelo is a Blood Brother, Unwholesome Bond requires
> Sanguinus. Uncontrolled Angelo has a circle (otherwise no Unwholesome
> Bond would work, right?). Ergo Controlled Angelo can play Unwholesome
> Bond as if a member of the (anonymous) circle of an uncontrolled Angelo.
>
> It's ambiguous whether "a vampire without a circle designation is his
> own circle" means that all uncontrolled Angelos are part of the same
> circle, but I'd be inclined to say no. For starts we have an obliquely
> related ruling
> (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2821ec2b7cc6079c)
> that there can't be two vampires in a "circle of one."
>
> Another reason I'd give is that there's a way to express that all
> Angelos are in the same circle - by printing on the card a circle name
> not used by any other vampire. And they didn't do that.

Correct.

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Orpheus wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
>>Chris Berger wrote:
>>>"All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo
>>>were a member of any circle."
>>>
>>>That's *any* circle, not *all* circles - big difference. "Any" implies
>>>singular, and thus implies that you have to choose which Circle he is
>>>considered a member of when any card requiring Sanguinus is played,
>>>just as Mata Hari must choose whether she plays Create Gargoyle as a
>>>Tremere or Tremere Antitribu.
>>
>>Correct.
>
> To be perfectly clear, a few concrete applications Qs for LSJ :
>
> - Angelo controlled can choose to be, say, Torrance, and do Unwholesome
> Bond on all uncontrolled of this circle

Yes.

> - Can controlled Blood Brothers play UB on Angelo as if he was a member
> of their circle ?

Inferior, with in-play Angelo, yes.
Superior, with uncontrolled Angelo: no.

> - Controlled Angelo wants to make UB ; in uncontrolled are both some
> Torrance and another Angelo : does he have to choose on which he'll do
> the UB or can he do it on both ?

He chooses.

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