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AI vs Artificially Human

 
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Gandalf Parker

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Since: Oct 02, 2005
Posts: 762



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:26 am
Post subject: AI vs Artificially Human
Archived from groups: alt>games>vgaplanets4 (more info?)

Im glad to see advancement in the AI but I want to put this out here.

In games, artificial inteligance takes on a new meaning. In other
applications, the most efficient means of achieving something is the
goal. But in games, that makes for a predictable opponent.

Having many different AI with many different playing styles can help.

Having the game recognize certain changes in the game and changing plans
accordingly can help.

But both of those can pile on the code. So a simpler way to "humanize" an
AI is to add randoms. And a way to make randoms seem to be a "plan" is to
multi-level it. If making 100 of something is the right choice for
"artificial intelligence". Then at the beginning of the game it rolls ZX
between 0 and 40. Then the 100 becomes 80+ZX (range of 80 to 140) and the
multi-level "plan" is that the 100 becomes 80+(random of 0 to ZX) which
means that a ZX defines the tendency, or the "plan" but it still
randomizes with that.

Im still not an expert at this particular game so if any examples are
insane for vgap4, just wave it off. But Im thinking of variations between
how much defense vs how much offense, and a direction of expansion, and
how much pickiness for planets it settles.

So for plans Im thinking we might see spreading in a circle, settle
everything, and seek out opponents.

Or maybe colonize deeply seeking out only perfect planets and building up
defenses

Or colonize in a cone going one direction (very different results
depending on if the cone is toward center or away from it) while building
ships, then when someone else is located swarm forth like a bursting dam

Just rambling
Gandalf Parker
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Magik

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Since: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 353



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:26 am
Post subject: Re: AI vs Artificially Human [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Randomness is definitely a factor.

Also the amount of time that a computer opponent has to process their
turn would determine the skill level. An novice AI player may only be
allowed to complete its turn in 1 minute while an expert level AI would
have 10 minutes.

Also, AI decisions should be put into a database to keep track of what
it is doing from turn to turn so it continues on a particular target
plan over the course of turns. Another way to simulate some randomness
there is to randomly delete one of those entries in the database, so
that the computer player "forgets" what it was doing and has to process
that again.

In my opinion, AI actions need to be put into priorities based on race
and game situations. Those that are highest take precidence in getting
processed and put into the long term plans database. The rest may not
get processed due to time constraints.

Magik
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Sparrow

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Since: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 518



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: AI vs Artificially Human [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

The AI will not be a worthy opponent for the next couple of years. As
far as I understood that is not the goal anyway.
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Gandalf Parker

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Since: Oct 02, 2005
Posts: 762



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:58 pm
Post subject: Re: AI vs Artificially Human [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Sparrow" <e.kueper.DeleteThis@gmx.net> contributed wisdom to
news:1134549919.474522.127900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> The AI will not be a worthy opponent for the next couple of years. As
> far as I understood that is not the goal anyway.

Yeah I kindof figured that. Most developers have trouble turning their
minds from efficient code (which is very close to ai in itself) to writing
humanized opponents. So getting an ai which is enough of a fill-in for
basic newbie tutorial levels is often considered the minimum. Getting one
which can fill in for missing players for a couple of turns is considered a
nice feature. Getting one that is even a medium opponent is considered a
goal for a fun project down the road.

However, I again say that if Tim writes in some 3rd party accessable hooks,
then others could tackle this. Thats completely up to him. It has its pros
and cons.

Gandalf Parker
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Gandalf Parker

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Since: Oct 02, 2005
Posts: 762



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: AI vs Artificially Human [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Magik" <rickglover DeleteThis @paulhastings.com> contributed wisdom to
news:1134535483.465521.233560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> Randomness is definitely a factor.
>
> Also the amount of time that a computer opponent has to process their
> turn would determine the skill level. An novice AI player may only be
> allowed to complete its turn in 1 minute while an expert level AI would
> have 10 minutes.

Some of the greatest capabilities of PbEM play are things that I feel have
been under-utilized. Since players have all day to do a turn and their
turns are processed by a host, many limitations built into other games for
the same of speed can be bypassed. So it allows for epic sized maps, more
players, more options, more game-changing random events, and a lot more ai.
I would love to see a game that actually takes me a day to make all of my
turn and the hosting runs on my computer all night, as long as it makes use
of even ONE of those features. Of course VGAP4 does allow for more players
than most games and some pretty large maps so it is making good use of the
PbEM.

> Also, AI decisions should be put into a database to keep track of what
> it is doing from turn to turn so it continues on a particular target
> plan over the course of turns.

Thats one way but the multi-level randoms I spoke of were another way of
handling that. The races randoms are rolled at the beginning and used as a
new random range for each action. So one race might be running in one game
with numbers always at the high end and in a small range, and in another
game at the high end in a large range, or low and low, or low end and high
variable, etc.

> Another way to simulate some randomness
> there is to randomly delete one of those entries in the database, so
> that the computer player "forgets" what it was doing and has to process
> that again.

Agreed. Especially in games that support different styles. If a game
supports ai that are barbaric swarm, and ones that are defensive
researchers, and ones that are agreessive expansionists, etc. Then a great
option is for the computer to be able to realize that its present tactics
are losing ground, and reselect. If I find a defensive researcher and start
picking away at their defenses while stealing their tech, its a big shock
to have it suddenly get pissed off and become an enraged swarm. Its also
alot of fun if the game allows for the insane emperor who just randomly
reselects everything at any random moment.

> In my opinion, AI actions need to be put into priorities based on race
> and game situations. Those that are highest take precidence in getting
> processed and put into the long term plans database. The rest may not
> get processed due to time constraints.

Ive always liked that. I would love to see the bird men be treated
different than the lizards. And then still have some random variables
within that. But I highly suspect that only a game supporting player
scripted races would ever get there. Something like what Space Empires IV
(and soon V) did. I love the fact that the game went from 8 races in the
distributed disk to being over 300 races with portraits, ships, and tactic
styles (and its still growing). I dont think vgap4 will get there. Maybe
vgap5? Smile

As for time contraints, yes it would be nice if the ai chose the fast and
dirty actions, and then went back if there was time to rethink and
consider. A setting for the max run-time for the host would be sweet. Id
set it for fast and stupid while I was learning then give it more time to
"think" as I progressed.

Gandalf Parker
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