{3.5E} 3.75E Skills

SeaHen wrote:
> One thing 4E got partly right was reducing the number of skills.
> ... Here's my version of the 4E skill list for otherwise 3.5E rules.

I posted my own shorter list a few days ago. First, stuff I mostly
agree with:

> 1. Acrobatics (Dex, ACP): 3.5E Balance, Escape Artist, Ride and Tumble
> merged.
> 3. Athletics (Str, ACP): 3.5E Climb, Jump and Swim merged.
> 4. Bluff (Cha): as 3.5E.
> 5. Craft (Int): as 3.5E.
> 12. Intimidate (Cha): as 3.5E.
> 21. Perform (Cha): as 3.5E.
> 24. Stealth (Dex, ACP): 3.5E Hide and Move Silently merged.

> 2. Appraise (Int): as 3.5E.

I combined this with Search and Disable Device as Examne. DD was based
in part on its being an Int skill in the first place and in part on the
idea that disabling something had mostly to do with carefully figuring
out exactly how it worked. I'm now leaning toward adding a Disable
Device as a feat that allows using Examine this way, probably combined
with using Manual Dexterity (see below) to enable Open Locks.

> 6. Diplomacy (Cha): 3.5E Handle Animal and ~ merged.

Handle Animal belongs somewhere, but I'm not sure it belongs here!
Also, I merged in Gather Information.

> 7. Disable Device (Dex): 3.5E Open Lock and ~ merged.

I don't like basing this on Dex. Tactile Trapsmith always felt like it
was a hack to make a few more skills depend on a Rogue's main attribute.
I merged Open Lock into Manual Dexterity along with Sleight of Hand
and Use Rope: UR had to go somewhere because it was IMHO so very rarely
used.

> 8. Disguise (Wis): 3.5E Forgery and ~ merged.

I really don't see why Disguise goes to Wis instead of Cha. Merging
Forgery somewhere makes a lot of sense (rarely used otherwise, IMHO),
but I kept it with Int and made it part of Knowledge(Writing) along with
Decipher Script.

> 9. Endurance (Con): as 4E, minus disease resistance, plus extended
> running (skills DC 10 + 1/round), plus 3.5E Concentration.

I haven't seen the 4e definition but was considering a physical
endurance skill. If there's only one Con-based skill, ISTM the issue
needs more thought. I'd be inclined to have Concentration as it was,
possibly with synergy from Knowledge(arcana and/or religion), and add
some form of physical endurange.

> 10. Gather Information (Cha): as 3.5E.

I figured this was almost entirely Diplomacy, albeit with a synergy from
Knowledge(Region) [local and/or geography].

> 11. Heal (Wis): as 3.5E.

Why not just allow it as a professsion? I'm not sure that's the best
way to go either, but Heal always felt too narrow to me.

> 13. Knowledge (arcana) (Int): 3.5E Spellcraft and ~ merged, plus Inner
> Planes, Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane and Plane of Shadow and their
> inhabitants, minus constructs.
> 18. Knowledge (religion) (Wis): As 3.5E plus Outer Planes and their
> inhabitants.

The main thing I did differently is merge everything about all kinds of
planes into both Knowledge(Religion) and Knowledge(Arcana); I'm not so
sure I see as clean a split as you do.

> 14. Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int): as 3.5E plus
> constructs.

Too specialized for me -- I hand-waved it into specialties of Craft and
Profession.

> 15. Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Wis): 3.5E below-ground Survival and ~
> merged.
> 17. Knowledge (nature) (Wis): 3.5E above-ground Survival and ~ merged.

Switching these to Wis makes it seem to me like they were meant more for
survival than for knowledge. I did merge in the survival aspect but
kept the Int base. I considered letting people substitute Wis for Int
when using the skill for survival, and I'm also thinking about Survival
as a feat that allows a new use for the existing skill: just like (old)
Track allowed a new use for Survival.

> 16. Knowledge (history) (Int): 3.5E knowledge (geography, ~, local,
> nobility and royalty) merged.

I merged in nobility like you did, but combined geography and local into
"region".

> 19. Linguistics (Int): 3.5E Decipher Script, plus decipher an unknown
> spoken language or jargon (DC 15 for jargon or wildly different
> dialect, 30 for completely different language), plus acquire an extra
> language for every 5 ranks.

I merged Decipher Script and Forgery into Knowledge(Writing), which I
also figured on using for library research.

> 20. Perception (Wis): 3.5E Spot, Listen and Search merged, plus
> identify a potion identical to one you've taken before (DC 20), plus
> detect poison in food (DC 30).

Spot and Listen for sure, but I think of Search differently:
Wis/Perception is more about noticing things, Int/Search about
understanding what you're seeing. So I merged Appraise and Search into
Examine (along with Disable Device, discussed separately).

> 22. Sense Motive (Wis): as 3.5E.

I'm not too sure about this one. When I did my own version it seemed a
bit too specialized. Initially I merged it with Perception, but now
figure that's overkill on the skills reduction. I am considering making
it a feat that allows Perception to be used like the 3.5 Sense Motive
skill: it's sort of like Track allowing a special use for Survival.


> 23. Sleight of Hand (Dex, ACP): as 3.5E.
> 26. Use Rope (Dex): as 3.5E.

Merged with Open Lock into "Manual Dexterity". SoH and UR seemed rarely
used to me, so even if they don't belong with Open Lock, they needed to
be merged.

> 25. Use Magic Device (Cha): as 3.5E.

I'm still puzzling over this one; I'm not even sure it ever made sense
as Cha-baed, which seems to treat it as a "talkning or fooling the
device into believing something". Currently I'm thinking of UMD as a
feat to apply to Knowledge(Arcana, Psionics, Religion), probably
individually.

>
> Class skill lists, and skill points per level, are as follows:

Initially I've taken the coward's way out by just substituting each new
skill for the old in the existing skill lists, rather than
wholeheartedly reviewing all. The one thing I adamantly disagree with
is reducing the number of skill points per level to somehow compensate
for the fewer skills: IMHO skills weren't used often enough.

> Barbarian: 2+Int. Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Intimidate, Perception,
> Knowledge (nature).

Why not Acrobatics too?

> Note that the Int modifier is still applied in full to determine how
> many skills you can gain.

I haven't changed that either, but am uneasy about it. Sure makes
creating Nth-level multiclassed characters more complex if Int changed
along the way somewhere. Plus, realistically, don't some
intellectually-challenged characters justifiably have lots of skills?
Sill, I don't feel entirely comfortable with deleting it. I'm inclined
to eilimate the problem of what happens when you increase Int by having
total SP magically update if Int increases; to the people who ojected to
people suddenly acquiring high-ranked versions of brand new skills, I
say where were you when my fighter suddenly acquired years of study to
be a mage?

On Jun 15, 8:51 am, David Alex Lamb <dal....DeleteThis@cs.queensu.ca> wrote:

>  > Barbarian: 2+Int. Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Intimidate, Perception,
>  > Knowledge (nature).
>
> Why not Acrobatics too?

A barbarian's training focuses on raw power, not on graceful movement.
Just look at his Ref saves.

> I haven't changed that either, but am uneasy about it.  Sure makes
> creating Nth-level multiclassed characters more complex if Int changed
> along the way somewhere.  Plus, realistically, don't some
> intellectually-challenged characters justifiably have lots of skills?

They can if they don't max them out; that's the nice thing about using
skill points rather than the 4E/Pathfinder system.

On Jun 15, 8:51 am, David Alex Lamb <dal... RemoveThis @cs.queensu.ca> wrote:
>  > 14. Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int): as 3.5E plus
>  > constructs.
>
> Too specialized for me -- I hand-waved it into specialties of Craft and
> Profession.

If we did that, only blacksmiths would know anything about iron
golems. Or do you have a different method?

>  > 15. Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Wis): 3.5E below-ground Survival and ~
>  > merged.
>  > 17. Knowledge (nature) (Wis): 3.5E above-ground Survival and ~ merged..
>
> Switching these to Wis makes it seem to me like they were meant more for
> survival than for knowledge.

Not all book-learning depends on the same mental faculties.

> I did merge in the survival aspect but
> kept the Int base.  I considered letting people substitute Wis for Int
> when using the skill for survival, and I'm also thinking about Survival
> as a feat that allows a new use for the existing skill: just like (old)
> Track allowed a new use for Survival.
>
>  > 16. Knowledge (history) (Int): 3.5E knowledge (geography, ~, local,
>  > nobility and royalty) merged.
>
> I merged in nobility like you did, but combined geography and local into
> "region".

Not a good name: too easily confused with "religion."

On Jun 15, 8:51 am, David Alex Lamb <dal... DeleteThis @cs.queensu.ca> wrote:
>  > 11. Heal (Wis): as 3.5E.
>
> Why not just allow it as a professsion?  I'm not sure that's the best
> way to go either, but Heal always felt too narrow to me.

Ah, you mean add an income-earning function to it? Sounds good.

SeaHen wrote:

> Also, a magic item that continuously grants a bonus to a skill now costs
> 200 gp (rather than 100 gp) times the bonus squared.

I'd seriously consider going higher still. You're about 3:1 on
average, and the 2nd and 3rd power would've been +50%, so 100+150+150 =
400 gp base.
I'm not sure the 3.5 bump in cost went far enough anyway though,
they're still pretty cheap at higher levels. MIC might have went and made
them cheaper again, but I never did get that book.


> Although Endurance effectively makes Concentration cross-class for
> spellcasters, this should be fine given the lack of high-level uses for
> Concentration.

Depends if anyone uses readied attacks to disrupt them. DC 10+damage
is tough at the best of times.


> Comments?

Consider, for ease of use with printed materials, that you just buy
the old skills in sets for the price of one rather than actually merge
them. It also keeps the class skills in line (though I'd consider dumping
that distinction for ease of use alone, or use the Pathfinder RPG
comprimise).

Speaking of which, no 4x points at 1st level, max ranks = HD, but
class skills get +3. Brilliance.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.

SeaHen wrote:
> David Alex Lamb wrote:

>> I haven't changed that either, but am uneasy about it.  Sure makes
>> creating Nth-level multiclassed characters more complex if Int changed
>> along the way somewhere.  Plus, realistically, don't some
>> intellectually-challenged characters justifiably have lots of skills?
>
> They can if they don't max them out; that's the nice thing about using
> skill points rather than the 4E/Pathfinder system.

NB: Pathfinder went back to skill ranks for just that purpose in
Alpha 3, detail in my other post.

Oh, and let Int be retroactive for fixed boosts, make it take extra
downtime if you're worried about how it feels. /So/ much simpler.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.

SeaHen <seahen123 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 15, 8:51 am, David Alex Lamb <dal... RemoveThis @cs.queensu.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > 16. Knowledge (history) (Int): 3.5E knowledge (geography, ~, local,
>> > nobility and royalty) merged.
>>
>> I merged in nobility like you did, but combined geography and local into
>> "region".
>
> Not a good name: too easily confused with "religion."

HERO System uses 'Area Knowledge' here.


Keith
--
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keith.davies RemoveThis @gmail.com The moonshiner's daughter
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