3E, 4E, and video games

number six wrote:
> I don't see the 3e/Diablo connection, but I definitely see 4e/
> Warcraft.
> I'm not a fan of 4e as an rpg, but me and a couple guys are adapting
> it for minis skirmishes, which is a fairly damning indicator that it's
> just a set of statistics/operators rather than an rpg.
>
> On Jan 1, 7:42 am, Werebat<ranpoir....RemoveThis@cox.net> wrote:
>> Here's a notion of mine that I won't delve into too deeply here, but I'd
>> like to see what people think about it:
>>
>> * 3E tried to emulate Diablo II, a popular video game
>> * 4E tried to emulate World of Warcraft, a popular video game
>>
>> Any comments?
>>
>> - Ron ^*^

Interesting, I had thought that the 3E/Diablo connection would be more
readily apparent. Especially since someone (I *think* it was WotC) put
out a Diablo campaign setting for 3E shortly after it came out.

In many ways the concept of "feats" seemed derived from Diablo's
mechanic of giving different classes optional advancement choices as
they leveled up.

Even as late as MIC, when we saw the introduction of "weapon and armor
slots" that could be filled with "magic crystals", I was chuckling over
how much they had borrowed from Diablo.

Having just gotten into WoW, and never actually played 4E, it's harder
for me to see the connections, but I've seen a few of them right away
and I figure there must be more.

- Ron ^*^

Werebat wrote:
> number six wrote:
>> I don't see the 3e/Diablo connection, but I definitely see 4e/
>> Warcraft.
>> I'm not a fan of 4e as an rpg, but me and a couple guys are adapting
>> it for minis skirmishes, which is a fairly damning indicator that it's
>> just a set of statistics/operators rather than an rpg.
>>
>> On Jan 1, 7:42 am, Werebat<ranpoir... DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote:
>>> Here's a notion of mine that I won't delve into too deeply here, but I'd
>>> like to see what people think about it:
>>>
>>> * 3E tried to emulate Diablo II, a popular video game
>>> * 4E tried to emulate World of Warcraft, a popular video game
>>>
>>> Any comments?
>>>
>>> - Ron ^*^
>
> Interesting, I had thought that the 3E/Diablo connection would be more
> readily apparent. Especially since someone (I *think* it was WotC) put
> out a Diablo campaign setting for 3E shortly after it came out.

I have never played either Diablo OR WoW, but I was able to pick up on
some WoW (or at least some MMORPG) similarities for 4e. No such showed
up for 3e; virtually ALL of the changes I saw in 3e came from actually
trying to address the basic failings of D&D while not making it NOT D&D.

>
> In many ways the concept of "feats" seemed derived from Diablo's
> mechanic of giving different classes optional advancement choices as
> they leveled up.

No, it came from the idea of giving diversity to characters and
customizing them, discussions ongoing since the days of original D&D.

>
> Even as late as MIC, when we saw the introduction of "weapon and armor
> slots" that could be filled with "magic crystals", I was chuckling over
> how much they had borrowed from Diablo.

I think you have failed to properly spell "Final Fantasy VII".

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Werebat wrote:
> Here's a notion of mine that I won't delve into too deeply here, but I'd
> like to see what people think about it:
>
> * 3E tried to emulate Diablo II, a popular video game
> * 4E tried to emulate World of Warcraft, a popular video game
>
> Any comments?

I never played Diablo II. How is 3E similar?

Werebat wrote:
> Here's a notion of mine that I won't delve into too deeply here, but
> I'd like to see what people think about it:
>
> * 3E tried to emulate Diablo II, a popular video game
> * 4E tried to emulate World of Warcraft, a popular video game
>
> Any comments?

Never played Diablo but I believe 4E *definitely* tried to emulate MMOs
-- not specifically World of Warcraft but the general mechanics of MMOs.
It feels like playing an MMO on paper with cards and dice. Everything
from base attacks and powers to roles and limited magic is an MMO
equivalent. It was designed for the console gaming generation as a quick
skirmish system and I think this is why so many of the grognards dislike it.

I prefer playing MMOs online because the computer handles all the
fiddley bits and I can play whenever I want for as long as I want. I can
do my own thing or group up with others.

I have decided to give our home game another month of playing 4E (until
the end of January) and will then make a choice whether to continue with
the group or just stop playing D&D and stick with my MMO of choice (Lord
of the Rings Online). Two of the other players will *only* play 4E, the
DM and another player are on the fence for 3.5E vs. 4E. In our group I
was the only resister to the 'upgrade' and am the only complainer. I am
also the only one who plays an MMO (the rest are not computer gamers).


- Sheldon

Nel tempo Thu, 01 Jan 2009 10:42:15 -0500, il mio fedele schiavo Wu
desto' nel mio animo interesse sopra il conversare di Werebat
<ranpoirier.DeleteThis@cox.net>:

>* 3E tried to emulate Diablo II, a popular video game
>* 4E tried to emulate World of Warcraft, a popular video game
>
>Any comments?

I haven't played Diablo II, only the first one; but I can't see 3E
borrowing any concept from that title. Or from any other of the CRPGs
I've played, for that matter.

As for 4E and World of Warcraft, one of my campaigns is set in Azeroth
and though we play sporadically, I should notice there any
similarities in gameplay if anywhere. I said /should/, because I
didn't notice any so far. (1)
And I've been playing WoW long and in depth (semi-hardcore raider, and
on an active RP server so I've experienced that side of the MMORPG as
well).


(1) aside from things like "you can play a Warrior, a Wizard etc."...
I'm sure you'll see why I don't consider that very significant.

Parvati V
--
"What is brain? Pai doesn't have such thing" - Pai, 3x3 eyes
UnaMoleDiDadi (TreEmme Torino): http://umdd.altervista.org/
http://parvatiquinta.blogspot.com/

In article <b9jvl49dervp3r2b8jsorl06ah6ndt33b9.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
Parvati V <parvatiquinta.TakeThisOut@email.it> wrote:

> As for 4E and World of Warcraft, one of my campaigns is set in Azeroth
> and though we play sporadically, I should notice there any
> similarities in gameplay if anywhere. I said /should/, because I
> didn't notice any so far. (1)
> And I've been playing WoW long and in depth (semi-hardcore raider, and
> on an active RP server so I've experienced that side of the MMORPG as
> well).

There are two reasons why you should have noticed it. The first is that
a gazillion people have.

The second is the similarities between carefully balanced classes
without save or disabled attacks, with a long hit point dance with the
boss monster. Both have plentiful use of railroading.

I've played WoW for 4 years and while I've done minimal raiding, I've
done enough to get the feel. I have 7 characters on an RP server from
levels 60-77.

- Allen

On Jan 3, 7:01 pm, Allen Wessels <awess... DeleteThis @EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <tvqvl49jle1i8s4fpd7lsr7pkeijuav... DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
>  Parvati V <parvatiqui... DeleteThis @email.it> wrote:
>
> > Railroading... now there's the difference. /The Difference./ WoW can't
> > be anything but railroading, D&D4 can. In fact, that's /the/ reason
> > for playing a pen & paper RPG over many kinds of other fun games.

WoW contains very little railroading of this type. You go where you
want, do what you want (within the confines of the game, it is a
computer game after all). You don't want to finish a quest or an
instance, well, then don't. You wanna try to walk from Teldrassil to
Stormwind at 2nd level, go right ahead. That is not railroading.

> D&D4 specifically instructs the DM to railroad.

Lame.

>  It's all about creating
> a stage and making sure the players and the monsters get there.  The DMG
> talks specifically about it not mattering that the players don't go near
> the monster lair.  If you want the encounter to happen, the monster
> shows up.
>
> I call that railroading.

Even WoW is not that lame. WoW at least has places where a PC will
die if they go there too soon.

If the choo-choo fits, wear it!

In article
<6bff6ffd-22e4-4cee-924d-660f7249a2dd.TakeThisOut@t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
decalod85 <decalod85.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Jan 3, 7:01 pm, Allen Wessels <awess....TakeThisOut@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article <tvqvl49jle1i8s4fpd7lsr7pkeijuav....TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
> >  Parvati V <parvatiqui....TakeThisOut@email.it> wrote:
> >
> > > Railroading... now there's the difference. /The Difference./ WoW can't
> > > be anything but railroading, D&D4 can. In fact, that's /the/ reason
> > > for playing a pen & paper RPG over many kinds of other fun games.
>
> WoW contains very little railroading of this type. You go where you
> want, do what you want (within the confines of the game, it is a
> computer game after all). You don't want to finish a quest or an
> instance, well, then don't. You wanna try to walk from Teldrassil to
> Stormwind at 2nd level, go right ahead. That is not railroading.

The significant boss fights basically rule out crowd control on the boss
irrespective of class or power type. That is railroading. Railroading
is removing significant choice from the players. In many boss fights
you play musical chairs and if you don't do exactly the right things at
the right time, you can't kill the boss. That is railroading.

It's more like a very tricky lock than a fight that tests your mastery
of all your resources.

And as a matter of fact, my first day in WoW I made a Night Elf and as
soon as I hit level 5 I figured how hard could it be, I just stick to
the roads, walk back to my body when I'm dead and lather, rinse and
repeat.

I didn't know the map and I didn't know the levels or even what level
differences meant. I thought I was really smart looking at the global
map in trying to take a shortcut through a Searing Gorge gate. It turns
out that at level 5, you aggro'd stuff into the graveyard. After
several hours of progress, I was stuck with no way that I knew out. You
have to have time to hearth and the stuff was on you before the hearth
spell completed.

Of course WoW railroads. There are travel and modal limitations
everywhere. You essentially cannot fight opponents 10% higher level
than you with effect (plus or minus). (The 40 man level 1 raid attacks
on Hogger notwithstanding)

4th Edition D&D Railroads for much the same reasons as WoW needs to.
You can neither program nor teach scenario execution to a level that
would permit free use of abilities.

- Allen

Werebat wrote:
> In many ways the concept of "feats" seemed derived from Diablo's
> mechanic of giving different classes optional advancement choices as
> they leveled up.

Feats seem pretty clearly derived from the same paper 'n pencil
traditions that gave us Weapon Proficiencies and Non-Weapon
Proficiencies in 2nd Edition. One antecedent of particular note would
be the Virtues and Flaws of ARS MAGICA -- a game co-designed, like 3rd
Edition, by Jonathan Tweet.

> Even as late as MIC, when we saw the introduction of "weapon and armor
> slots" that could be filled with "magic crystals", I was chuckling over
> how much they had borrowed from Diablo.

That concept was present in D&D years before Diablo was even in
development.

> Having just gotten into WoW, and never actually played 4E, it's harder
> for me to see the connections, but I've seen a few of them right away
> and I figure there must be more.

I don't really see the connection here, either. 4th Edition doesn't
play much like WoW at all. It doesn't play much like D&D, either, but
that's a different issue.

(Are there similarities between 4th Edition and WoW? Sure. Are those
similarities any more notable than the similarities WoW has to any of
a dozen other paper 'n pencil RPGs? Not really.)

--
Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Nel tempo Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:23:04 -0800, il mio fedele schiavo Wu
desto' nel mio animo interesse sopra il conversare di Allen Wessels
<awessels.TakeThisOut@EXPUNGEpacbell.net>:

>There are two reasons why you should have noticed it. The first is that
>a gazillion people have.

Many I've spoken to tend to not have any knowledge to speak of of D&D4
or WoW, and in some cases of either and they were just parroting what
everyone is saying - so I'm not impressed by that gazillion.

Now, I don't really require a degree or anything like that as long as
open-mindedness covers up for lack of raw data. But I've grown bored
enough with parrots to drop any political correctness I may have had


Oh and another thing. The DMG /screams/ The Forge in some paragraphs,
but since there's not a gazillion people who know The Forge (1),
there's not a gazillion people noticing that. Real shame, isn't it,
that a gazillion people does not see the whole picture?

>The second is the similarities between carefully balanced classes
>without save or disabled attacks, with a long hit point dance with the
>boss monster. Both have plentiful use of railroading.

Class balance is not a concept new to 4E in D&D, they only changed the
way they reach it. I'll drop this into the 'not relevant similarity'
bin.

Absence of save or disabled attacks: this is a difference, not a
similarity. WoW does have them. There are also bosses who doom players
to certain death (good old Vaelastrasz...).
Now, the importance of death in either game is another matter of
course. But resurrection effects are not new to 4E D&D. =)

Long hit point dance with the boss monster: again not new to 4E.
On a side note, I'd like to point out that high level characters have
/less/ hit points than in 3E, generally speaking. They did greatly
reduce the variation (no more 10 level rogues on 30 HP), and that is
different from WoW - because in WoW gear makes your stats, as happened
somewhat in 3E D&D, but this has been removed in 4E.

Railroading... now there's the difference. /The Difference./ WoW can't
be anything but railroading, D&D4 can. In fact, that's /the/ reason
for playing a pen & paper RPG over many kinds of other fun games.

(Yes, they introduced a nice mechanic with WotLK and quests shaping
the world - finally - but it's still all scripted).

>I've played WoW for 4 years and while I've done minimal raiding, I've
>done enough to get the feel. I have 7 characters on an RP server from
>levels 60-77.

Thanks for sharing your experience, though I'll repeat - I'm just
tired of parrots and of the haterade going on (I liked this word,
Justisaur!), never of people who may know less than me or just have
different opinions, but are willing to be open-minded.



(1) or any other RPG than D&D for that matter.

Parvati V
--
"What is brain? Pai doesn't have such thing" - Pai, 3x3 eyes
UnaMoleDiDadi (TreEmme Torino): http://umdd.altervista.org/
http://parvatiquinta.blogspot.com/

In article <tvqvl49jle1i8s4fpd7lsr7pkeijuavs9g RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
Parvati V <parvatiquinta RemoveThis @email.it> wrote:


> Long hit point dance with the boss monster: again not new to 4E.
> On a side note, I'd like to point out that high level characters have
> /less/ hit points than in 3E, generally speaking. They did greatly
> reduce the variation (no more 10 level rogues on 30 HP), and that is
> different from WoW - because in WoW gear makes your stats, as happened
> somewhat in 3E D&D, but this has been removed in 4E.

The point was a boss monster that has more hit points than any character
and you whittle down hit points. Yes there are some WoW bosses that are
more puzzles and skill challenges than hit point dances, but in general
it's about whittling and a long dance in both.

> Railroading... now there's the difference. /The Difference./ WoW can't
> be anything but railroading, D&D4 can. In fact, that's /the/ reason
> for playing a pen & paper RPG over many kinds of other fun games.

D&D4 specifically instructs the DM to railroad. It's all about creating
a stage and making sure the players and the monsters get there. The DMG
talks specifically about it not mattering that the players don't go near
the monster lair. If you want the encounter to happen, the monster
shows up.

I call that railroading.

> >I've played WoW for 4 years and while I've done minimal raiding, I've
> >done enough to get the feel. I have 7 characters on an RP server from
> >levels 60-77.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience, though I'll repeat - I'm just
> tired of parrots and of the haterade going on (I liked this word,
> Justisaur!), never of people who may know less than me or just have
> different opinions, but are willing to be open-minded.

Perhaps some of us wouldn't jump on 4 if people wouldn't keep claiming
that 4 is something that it's not. As it stands now, D&D4 is part of a
game primarily wrapped around skirmish rules. Some DMs may see the
removal of irritating fluff as a plus, but from my point of view they
delivered the product without half the structure and almost no chasis.

- Allen

On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:53:14 -0800, Allen Wessels
<awessels RemoveThis @EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:

>In article
><6bff6ffd-22e4-4cee-924d-660f7249a2dd RemoveThis @t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> decalod85 <decalod85 RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 3, 7:01 pm, Allen Wessels <awess... RemoveThis @EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
>> > In article <tvqvl49jle1i8s4fpd7lsr7pkeijuav... RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
>> >  Parvati V <parvatiqui... RemoveThis @email.it> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Railroading... now there's the difference. /The Difference./ WoW can't
>> > > be anything but railroading, D&D4 can. In fact, that's /the/ reason
>> > > for playing a pen & paper RPG over many kinds of other fun games.
>>
>> WoW contains very little railroading of this type. You go where you
>> want, do what you want (within the confines of the game, it is a
>> computer game after all). You don't want to finish a quest or an
>> instance, well, then don't. You wanna try to walk from Teldrassil to
>> Stormwind at 2nd level, go right ahead. That is not railroading.
>
>The significant boss fights basically rule out crowd control on the boss
>irrespective of class or power type. That is railroading. Railroading
>is removing significant choice from the players.

That's not the general definition.

> In many boss fights
>you play musical chairs and if you don't do exactly the right things at
>the right time, you can't kill the boss. That is railroading.
>
>It's more like a very tricky lock than a fight that tests your mastery
>of all your resources.
>
>And as a matter of fact, my first day in WoW I made a Night Elf and as
>soon as I hit level 5 I figured how hard could it be, I just stick to
>the roads, walk back to my body when I'm dead and lather, rinse and
>repeat.
>
>I didn't know the map and I didn't know the levels or even what level
>differences meant. I thought I was really smart looking at the global
>map in trying to take a shortcut through a Searing Gorge gate. It turns
>out that at level 5, you aggro'd stuff into the graveyard. After
>several hours of progress, I was stuck with no way that I knew out. You
>have to have time to hearth and the stuff was on you before the hearth
>spell completed.
>
>Of course WoW railroads. There are travel and modal limitations
>everywhere. You essentially cannot fight opponents 10% higher level
>than you with effect (plus or minus). (The 40 man level 1 raid attacks
>on Hogger notwithstanding)
>
>4th Edition D&D Railroads for much the same reasons as WoW needs to.
>You can neither program nor teach scenario execution to a level that
>would permit free use of abilities.
>

If you use that definition of railroading the every edition of D&D
that I've played railroaded.

(as does any other roleplaying game I've looked at)
--
"Hope is replaced by fear and dreams by survival, most of us get by."
Stuart Adamson 1958-2001

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