1861 Diary w/ mahjong

> Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> origins of the ma que suit names. Researchers referring to a money
> suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
> refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> by Dr Andrew Lo.
>
> In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> them.
>
> For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
>
> Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.

Unfortunately, the original post did not appear so the post above was
posted instead. This has resulted in duplication of the information.

The above posts are intended for new readers to this forum and hence
are for information purposes only and are NOT intended to be part of
any discussion.

Regards

On Dec 15, 3:28 pm, mstanw... RemoveThis @talktalk.net wrote:
> On Dec 15, 12:58 pm, mstanw... RemoveThis @talktalk.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > Any readers of this NG not in possession of the Japanese MJ Museum
> > book may find themselves inadvertantly confused regarding the use of
> > this book, with reference to discussions of MJ development.
>
> > Researchers posting to this group have made reference to the Ma Diao
> > FOUR-suited playing card DECK. This deck existed during the Ming and
> > partly into the Qing.
>
> > The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
> > various games during the Qing.
>
> > When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
> > they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
> > 3-suited deck.
>
> > There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.
>
> > There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
> > belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards. That Family they name Ma Diao. It
> > is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK. Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
> > NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
> > discussions on this NG.
>
> > As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
> > Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
> > origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.
> +++++++++++++++
> As an addition to the above clarification - it should also be pointed
> out that NONE of the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> dated. Since they are undated, none can be used as examples of playing
> card decks from before the earliest documented (dated) Ma Que
> descriptions.
> +++++++++++++
The "dated" statement above is obviously erroneous. By definition,
"Ming 4-suited deck" existed in the Ming dynasty (1368-1644), as
implied; and "Qing 3-suited deck existed in Qing dynasty (1636-1911),
likewise. The decks of cards existed within their time-frame.

> The only dated documented examples of a playing card deck - as dated
> evidence for the suit names derived from money - come from a
> translation of a late Ming card manual given by Dr Andrew Lo in the
> Journal of the International Playing Card
++++++++++++++++++
Here is a sample of the dated document.
"A cash is circular with a hole square. It takes its image from the
great, and the counting is done in reverse, ending in Zero cash. Thus
Zero Cash is supreme. Something empty is ideal for storage and
saving... The next is called 'the guest with missing teeth' (Half
Cash). Incompleteness is represented by the imagery of plums emaining
above a wll after a voracious meal. Poeple regard it as 'sprig of
flower'. A sprig of flower is one when the flower has not turned into
fruit. Thus from 1 to 9 they re all called fruits (guo), their names
coming from the sprig of flowers, although 'cash' was the original
meaning. The total number of cards is eleven and reaches its lower
limit at 9." The is direct quote from page 87.

Cash is one of four suits. "Each suit has its own hierarchy. The cash
suit starts from Zero Cash, Broken Cash (Half Cash) to 8 Cash. The
cash are piled up to form the hundreds (Strings suit), the hundreds
piled up to form the Myriad (suit), (taking myriad to mean ten
thousand), the myriads to form the Ten Myriads (suit) which ends in
the Ten Thousand Myriad card."

That too is direct quote from top of page 87.

These are money denominations (as claimed), starting with Cash at a
value of one-tenth of one cent. The next denomination is String of
100, although 1000 had been called a String as well. The third suit is
Myriad (taken to mean 10,000) and the fourth suit starts with 100,000
(hundred thousand) and ends at 10,000,000 (ten million).
+++++++++++++++
Somehow all these denominations and exotic descriptions all sound
phony money. They were called "fruits", so much like those from the
Garden of Eden (symbols for a concept other than money).

Take a look at page 55 photo 79 of the Illustrated Book of the Majong
Museum. The "Qing 3-suited deck" of cards has the historical roots of
mahjong.

More is to be said on this later.
++++++++++++++

Society. (For those new to
> this subject, this topic was discussed and explained on this NG with
> input from Dr Lo as to the meaning of the manual text translated by
> him.)

The topic was discussed and argued at length, but unresolved.
Input from Dr. Lo? Where?
++++++++++
Cheers...
Allan Lee

On Dec 16, 5:28 am, mstanw... DeleteThis @talktalk.net wrote:
> > Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> > undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> > origins of the ma que suit names.

INTERPRETATION: (All, most or some?) researchers do not use this
Japanese MJM Bbok in their work on "origin of the ma que suit names".
The photos and wood blocks associated are "undated" and therefore all
the suit names are "irrelevant", regardless what the Book says. [Is
that about right?]

Researchers referring to a money
> > suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> > that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
> > refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> > by Dr Andrew Lo.

INTERPRETATION: All researchers [in this group?] refer only to the
documentation of a Late Ming card manual [in translated and dated
version] for ma que suit name origin. [?]
>
> > In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> > denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> > them.
INTERPRETATION: one name for each of four suits; illustration on each
card. [?]

Not quite so simple. The key claim is the "Cash" suit [derived from a
circular shape and a slang expression]. This Cash suit has Zero Cash,
Half Cash and Cash 1 to 9. Zero Cash is highest in reversed ranking
and 1-Cash is a taiji (Tai Chi) diagram (no square hole at the middle
like a regular coin). That is the kind of Cash in the "Ming 4-suited
deck".

However, because the deck had a manual in Chinese (although there's no
mention where it is now), translated, hence "dated" and "documented".
Therefore it is the source "supreme ultimate" for ma que suit
research. [?]
>
> > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.

Here are some interesting topics [4 suits] in the translation. Quotes:
1 Cash. Like the diagram of the taiji (grand ultimate).
3 Cash. Like the shape of the GEN (Creative) trigram.
6 Cash. Like the shape of the KUN (Receptive) trigram.
5 Strings. Like the shape of the GEN (Keeping Still) trigram.
1 Myriad guan: Heaven's Clever Star.
2 Myriad guan: Heven's Heroic Star.
8 Myriad guan: Heaven's Void Star.
9 Myriad guan: Heaven's Retreat Star.
Hundred Myriad guan: Heaven's Criminal Star.
Thousnd Myriad guan: Heaven's Wounded Star.
Ten-thousand Myriad guan: Heaven's Supreme Star.

The above examples represent the 4 money-suits in Ma Diao and serve as
the base of support for the ma que "money-suited" claim. It's
documented evidence; no less.
>
> > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.

For direct support, there is 1-Cash, then Half-Cash and even Zero Cash
(highest).
>
> Unfortunately, the original post did not appear so the post above was
> posted instead. This has resulted in duplication of the information.
>
> The above posts are intended for new readers to this forum and hence
> are for information purposes only and are NOT intended to be part of
> any discussion.
>
> Regards
+++++++++++++
INTERPRETATION: Take these words of advice. No intention to discuss
further. [?]
+++++++++++
Let's boil it down to a simple question in a life situation.
If I say to a 6-year old kid: "Here is Zero Cash. Go buy something."
What would he or she say? "That's no cash. You think I am stupid?"
+++++++++
Cheers...
Allan Lee
Dec. 17, 2008

On Dec 16, 10:28 am, mstanw... DeleteThis @talktalk.net wrote:
> > Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> > undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> > origins of the ma que suit names. Researchers referring to a money
> > suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> > that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
> > refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> > by Dr Andrew Lo.
>
> > In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> > denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> > them.
>
> > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
>
> > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.

Examples of these topics may be found in the Search facility of the
site. Type in any of these topic headings;

Why a Sparrow?
Mahjong and Matiao related? How and Why?
Origin of Mahjong(MJ)/Other Hu Pai Design.
Winds Order.
What is Ma Que/Mahjong?(Was Winds Order).

On Dec 17, 7:40 pm, mstanw....DeleteThis@talktalk.net wrote:
> On Dec 16, 10:28 am, mstanw....DeleteThis@talktalk.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> > > undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> > > origins of the ma que suit names. Researchers referring to a money
> > > suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> > > that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
> > > refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> > > by Dr Andrew Lo.
>
> > > In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> > > denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> > > them.
>
> > > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
>
> > > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
>
> Examples of these topics may be found in the Search facility of the
> site. Type in any of these topic headings;
>
> Why a Sparrow?
> Mahjong and Matiao related? How and Why?
> Origin of Mahjong(MJ)/Other Hu Pai Design.
> Winds Order.
> What is Ma Que/Mahjong?(Was Winds Order).- Hide quoted text -

More importantly, check out the topic;

Origin of Mahjong. Invented or Evolved.

On Dec 17, 2:40 pm, mstanw....DeleteThis@talktalk.net wrote:
> On Dec 16, 10:28 am, mstanw....DeleteThis@talktalk.net wrote:
>
[MS:]
> > > Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> > > undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> > > origins of the ma que suit names.

[AL:] ARE YOU SPEAKING FOR THE ONE AND ONLY RESEARCHER(s)?

[MS:] Researchers referring to a money
> > > suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> > > that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,

[AL:] WHY? ANY RESEARCHER KNOWS MANY MOST VALUABLE DISCOVERIES HAVE
BEEN FOUNDED IN SOME LEAST PROBABLE SITUATIONS.

[MS:]
> > > refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> > > by Dr Andrew Lo.

[AL:] "OUT-DATED" IS MORE LIKE IT.
>
[MS:]
> > > In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> > > denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> > > them.

[AL:] HERE ARE SAMPLES OF THE DENOMINATIONS OF MONEY:
"ZERO CASH, HALF-CASH AND ONE-CASH"
"STRING OF CASH", 1 TO 9
"MYRIAD OF CASH"
"TEN MYRIAD, 100 1,000 MYRIAD CASH"

[AL:] NOTE. ZERO CASH (SUPREME, HIGHEST, WHILE 9-CASH IS LOWEST)
HALF-CASH IS A GUEST WITH MISSING TEETH. ONE-CASH IS "LIKE THE DIAGRAM
OF TAIJI (GRAND ULTIMATE).

FOR THE STRINGS OF CASH, 1-STRING IS "LIKE A HIR PIN". 6-STRING LIKE A
TRIGRAM [IN DIVINATION]

ALL MYRIADS OF CASH ARE NAMED WITH TITLES OF HEAVENLY STARS.

ALL IN ALL, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY, IF ANYBODY BELIEVES IN "ZERO CASH"
AND THAT ZERO CASH IS MOST CASH, HE IS OR OUGHT TO BE IN LOO LOO LAND.

ZERO CASH IS NO CASH. IT IS SIMPLE AS THAT. DOES NOT MATTER WHO SAID
SO, WHETHER IT WAS HO OR LO.
>
> > > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.

[AL:] NEW READERS SHOULD GET A COPY THE TRANSLATION ARTICLE AND READ
THE FIRST 3 PAGES TO GET A REAL FLAVOR AND SENSE OF CASH.
>
[MS:]
> > > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.

[AL:] TRANSLATION OF A DESCRIPTION DOES NOT MEAN DIRECT SUPPORT. LO
USED A QING [ENGLISH] TERM "CASH" (FROM HIMLY?) AND APPLIED IT TO A
MING [CHINESE] TERM (SUO3 ($B:w(B).

($B:w(B) HAS MORE THAN ONE MEANING IN CHINESE. TO ASK, TO DEMAND, TO SEEK,
TO EXTRACT [GUIDANCE AND ADVICE] AS IN DIVINATION IS THE TRUE MEANING
OF THE WORD, IMO.
>
[MS]
> Examples of these topics may be found in the Search facility of the
> site. Type in any of these topic headings;
>
> Why a Sparrow?
> Mahjong and Matiao related? How and Why?
> Origin of Mahjong(MJ)/Other Hu Pai Design.
> Winds Order.
> What is Ma Que/Mahjong?(Was Winds Order).

[AL:] THE ABOVE QUESTIONS AND TOPICS HAVE BEEN EYE-OPENERS FOR ME. I
HAVE LEARNED A LOT BUT I AM GETTING CLOSER TO some MORE ANSWERS.
THANKS.
++++++++++
Allan Lee
Dec. 18, 2008

On Dec 17, 9:58 pm, mstanw....TakeThisOut@talktalk.net wrote:
> On Dec 17, 7:40 pm, mstanw....TakeThisOut@talktalk.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 16, 10:28 am, mstanw....TakeThisOut@talktalk.net wrote:
>
> > > > Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> > > > undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> > > > origins of the ma que suit names. Researchers referring to a money
> > > > suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> > > > that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
> > > > refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> > > > by Dr Andrew Lo.
>
> > > > In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> > > > denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> > > > them.
>
> > > > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > > > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
>
> > > > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > > > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
>
> > Examples of these topics may be found in the Search facility of the
> > site. Type in any of these topic headings;
>
> > Why a Sparrow?
> > Mahjong and Matiao related? How and Why?
> > Origin of Mahjong(MJ)/Other Hu Pai Design.
> > Winds Order.
> > What is Ma Que/Mahjong?(Was Winds Order).- Hide quoted text -
>
> More importantly, check out the topic;
>
> Origin of Mahjong. Invented or Evolved.- Hide quoted text -

New readers to this forum checking out the posts in this MJ topic
thread will find revealed examples of incorrect thinking and examples
of serious memory loss. For example;

A quoted list from one of the posts in reply to a poster;
"(1) you clearly ignore corrections to your references from
documentary
evidence.
(2) you repeatedly distort what others have said or make claims about
what others have clearly not thought or said.
(3) you repeatedly make claims for which you have no evidential
support whatsoever. You don't even phrase your assertions to hint
they
are guesses or assumptions.
(4) you repeatedly select parts of what others have said and take
them
out of context so that they appear to support your ideas."

Such behaviours are the result of thinking errors and faulty memory
and are severe problems to NG discussion on topics such as the various
origin hypotheses of MJ attributes.

On Dec 18, 9:19 am, mstanw... DeleteThis @talktalk.net wrote:
> On Dec 17, 9:58 pm, mstanw... DeleteThis @talktalk.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 7:40 pm, mstanw... DeleteThis @talktalk.net wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 16, 10:28 am, mstanw... DeleteThis @talktalk.net wrote:
> [..]
>
MS:
> New readers to this forum checking out the posts in this MJ topic
> thread will find revealed examples of incorrect thinking and examples
> of serious memory loss. For example;
>
[AL:] HERE IS FAULTY THINKING SAMPLE. READERS ARE TOLD BEFORE THEY GET
A CHANCE TO READ IT THEMSELVES. LET THEM JUDGE.

IS THERE A TERM FOR THAT? POISONING THE WATER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

YOU HAVE LOST OBJECTIVITY WITHOUT KNOWING, MICHAEL.

[MS:]
> A quoted list from one of the posts in reply to a poster;
> "(1) you clearly ignore corrections to your references from
> documentary
> evidence.
> (2) you repeatedly distort what others have said or make claims about
> what others have clearly not thought or said.
> (3) you repeatedly make claims for which you have no evidential
> support whatsoever. You don't even phrase your assertions to hint
> they
> are guesses or assumptions.
> (4) you repeatedly select parts of what others have said and take
> them
> out of context so that they appear to support your ideas."
>
[AL:] THAT IS ONLY YOUR VIEW. BUT THAT IS NOT HOW I SEE IT.
CAN YOU APPLY THEM TO RECENT POSTS?

[MS:]
> Such behaviours are the result of thinking errors and faulty memory
> and are severe problems to NG discussion on topics such as the various
> origin hypotheses of MJ attributes.

[AL:] DISAGREE WITH YOU THERE. YOU BELIEVE IN "ZERO CASH"; I DO NOT. I
POINTED OUT TO YOU THAT 1-CASH WAS A TAIJI DIAGRAM IN MING MADIAO4.
YOU IGNORED IT. YOU DISCREDITED THE QING MADIAO3 IN MJM BOOK.

I RAISED QUESTIONS AND DOUBTS ABOUT THE 4 SUITS IN YOUR REFERENCE
SOURCE. YOU FAILED TO ADDRESS THEM. WHAT ANSWERS HAVE FOUND LATELY? I
CAN SAY I HAVE FOUND ANSWERS FOR MY QUESTIONS.

ONE EXAMPLE: WHY A SPARROW IS ON 1-$B:w(B? THE OBVIOUS ANSWER IS JUST A
SIMPLE FACT: SPARROW LIVE AND FEED ON BAMBOO. THERE IS SELDOM A
CHINESE PAINTING OF BAMBOO WITHOUT A SPARROW. THAT MEANS NO 'STRINGS'
AND NO CASH. BAMBOO GOES WITH SPARROW.

BAMBOO EXPLAINS THE SYMBOL AND CORRESPOND WITH BAMBOO SLIPS IN THE
SUIT OF MADIAO3 IN MJM BOOK. BAMBOO SLIPS SERVED AS A BASIC TOOL OF
DIVINATION IN ANCIENT TIME.

DIVINATION TIES IN WITH THE TAIJI DIAGRAM AND YIN-YANG CONCEPT IN I-
CHING TRIGRAMS AND HEXAGRAMS ETC. ETC. ALL MAKE SENSE!

THE CORRELATION COEFFICIENT IS THE MEASURE OF A HYPOTHESIS. WHEN
"CASH' CAN NOT EXPLAIN THE RULES OF MAHJONG AND THE RELATION WITH
RESPECT TO ESWN AND OTHER SYMBOLS, 'MONEY BASE' IS WORTHLESS.

"ZERO CASH IS ZERO CASH".
NO GOOD EVEN "HALF-CASH".
MATTERS NOT WHO SAID SO,
MISTER LEE OR DOCTOR LO.
+++++++++++++++++++++++

[MS:]
> > > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.

[AL:] NEW READERS SHOULD GET A COPY THE TRANSLATION ARTICLE AND READ
THE FIRST 3 PAGES TO GET A REAL FLAVOR AND SENSE OF CASH.

[MS:]
> > > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.

[AL:] TRANSLATION OF A DESCRIPTION DOES NOT MEAN DIRECT SUPPORT. LO
USED A QING [ENGLISH] TERM "CASH" (FROM HIMLY?) AND APPLIED IT TO A
MING [CHINESE] TERM (SUO3 ($B:w(B).

($B:w(B) HAS MORE THAN ONE MEANING IN CHINESE. TO ASK, TO DEMAND, TO SEEK,
TO EXTRACT [GUIDANCE AND ADVICE] AS IN DIVINATION IS THE TRUE MEANING
OF THE WORD, IMO.
++++++++++++++++
Allan Lee
Dec. 18, 2008

"(1) you clearly ignore corrections to your references from
documentary evidence.
(2) you repeatedly distort what others have said or make claims about
what others have clearly not thought or said.
(3) you repeatedly make claims for which you have no evidential
support whatsoever. You don't even phrase your assertions to hint
they are guesses or assumptions.
(4) you repeatedly select parts of what others have said and take
them out of context so that they appear to support your ideas."


The post from the last poster is replete with examples of all the
points above. Particularly interesting are the examples in that post
of # 2 and #3 above, when coupled with the fact that the claims above,
with reference to Lo's translations, were already repeatedly answered
with evidential support.

Such behaviours of;
(1) ignoring or completely forgetting to answer the arguments that
were given with documentary evidence or
(2) distorting that evidence by taking it out of context or
(3) when answers about various terms were provided with contextual
evidence, then falling back on the tactic of casting unfounded
aspertions on the translator's expertise while
(4) continuing to blatantly cite or use terms from that very
translation

are an effort to swamp and abuse this forum with an agenda using the
above behaviours.

Repeated posts rehashing the same behaviours may be found in the
Mahjong topic headings listed in recent posts. It is not the content
of the arguments but the behaviours on this forum of the person
posting them that is at issue.

On Dec 18, 3:36 pm, mstanw....DeleteThis@talktalk.net wrote:

MS:
> "(1) you clearly ignore corrections to your references from
> documentary evidence.
++++++++++
AL:
Not clear to me...what when where and who? I can never accept "Zero
Cash" as documented evidence.
++++++++++
MS:
> (2) you repeatedly distort what others have said or make claims about
> what others have clearly not thought or said.
++++++++++++
I do not know how to distort what others say. I do not need to.
Readers know the difference. And I have no way of knowing what others
thought and haven't said.
+++++++++++++++++++
MS:
> (3) you repeatedly make claims for which you have no evidential
> support whatsoever. You don't even phrase your assertions to hint
> they are guesses or assumptions.
+++++++++++++++
AL:
When speaking from personal experience, I need no evidential support
whatsoever.
Let me remind you. In mahjong discussion, everything is "guessing"
and assumptions are upon assumptions. Who is unaware of that?
++++++++++
MS:
> (4) you repeatedly select parts of what others have said and take
> them out of context so that they appear to support your ideas."
++++++++++++
AL:
Strongly disagree... one can only quote so much. Supporting one's own
hypothesis is purpose of discussion. Nothing wrong there.
++++++++++++++++++
MS:
> The post from the last poster is replete with examples of all the
> points above. Particularly interesting are the examples in that post
> of # 2 and #3 above, when coupled with the fact that the claims above,
> with reference to Lo's translations, were already repeatedly answered
> with evidential support.
++++++++++++
AL:
You should be more specific. Cite examples.
++++++++++++++
MS:
> Such behaviours of;
> (1) ignoring or completely forgetting to answer the arguments that
> were given with documentary evidence or
> (2) distorting that evidence by taking it out of context or
> (3) when answers about various terms were provided with contextual
> evidence, then falling back on the tactic of casting unfounded
> aspertions on the translator's expertise while
> (4) continuing to blatantly cite or use terms from that very
> translation
>
> are an effort to swamp and abuse this forum with an agenda using the
> above behaviours.
>
> Repeated posts rehashing the same behaviours may be found in the
> Mahjong topic headings listed in recent posts. It is not the content
> of the arguments but the behaviours on this forum of the person
> posting them that is at issue.
+++++++++++++++
AL:
You have to be more specific, Michael. But as I said: with reference
to Ma Diao "cash",

"Zero Cash" is a zero
"Half Cash" is a no-no
Matters not who said so
Mister Lee or doctor Lo
++++++++++++
Cheers...
Allan Lee
Dec. 19, 2008

It hardly need be pointed out that the previous poster's 'ideas' are
repleat with glaring logical fallacies and appeals to the irrational
notion of personal experience (when outside of the person's time
frame) - instead of dated documentary evidence - as if it were a
virtue.
When caught out by the translator's own testimony(via a poster to this
forum) of the meaning of the original text, then denying the
translator's expertise and integrity. When that fails, blatantly out
and out denial by falling back on their own ignorance, as if that were
also a virtue!
There is also their denial in not knowing how to distort what others
have said, even after they have ignored the many distortions when they
are pointed out to them with the undistorted text.
There is also their seeming inability in facing the hilarious
contradiction when they deny the meanings of parts of a text that they
cannot force into their baseless arguments, whilst simultaneously
using other parts of the very same text to support those same baseless
arguments.
Some of their more common logical fallacies will be described - with
examples from these posts - in due course.
Finally, there is also their apparent memory loss, which may account
for some of behaviour.

As has been said before, but it is important, the poster who is the
subject of this post is not categorized with these failings because of
his dissenting opinions, but because of the manner in which he behaves
in topic discussions in this forum.

On Dec 15, 7:58 am, mstanw... DeleteThis @talktalk.net wrote:

following my post immediately preceding:
I, in an effort to show the possibility of a connection between
mahjong and Yijing, I decided to let evidence do the talking. I made
reference to page 55, Photo 79 of "Illustrated Book of the Mahjong
Museum (1999). There a 3-suited Ma Diao set has all the YiJing
divination connections, written in 3 languages (Japanese, Chinese and
English). That prompted the response below and further comments
unjustified.

> Any readers of this NG not in possession of the Japanese MJ Museum
> book may find themselves inadvertantly confused regarding the use of
> this book, with reference to discussions of MJ development.
>
What possible confusion?

> Researchers posting to this group have made reference to the Ma Diao
> FOUR-suited playing card DECK. This deck existed during the Ming and
> partly into the Qing.
>
> The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
> various games during the Qing.
>
Simple enough... a 4-suited deck in Ming (presumably) evolved into 3-
suited deck in Qing over time. The 4-suited deck could be related to
the 3-suited deck, logically.

> When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
> they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
> 3-suited deck.
>
Question: Ming 4-suited deck evolved to Qing 3-suited deck; why
researchers limit their scope to talking about ONLY the former and
exclude the latter?

> There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.
>
So what? The DNA in the 3-suited deck could serve just as well,
perhaps, as DNA of the 4-suited deck. Why not study one or the other
or both?

> There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
> belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards. That Family they name Ma Diao. It
> is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK.

On what evidence and authority? Then what is the name of the 3-suited
deck (on page 55 of that Book)?

>Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
> NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
> discussions on this NG.

Again, who decides on this context and why? This sounds like
restricting blood study to type "A" only, not type (B) or any other
types in search of a particular feature of blood.
>
> As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
> Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
> origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.
+++++++++
Does that not sound arbitrary, over-bearing and unreasonable?
Supposedly, it is known commonly accepted that 4-suited ma diao
evolved to 3-suited ma diao, except it is not commonly known that no 3-
suited decks can be called Ma Diao.

That is hard to believe; so I don't believe it.

More yet... mahjong is believed related to ma diao, but mahjong cannot
relate directly in anyway to 3-suited not-ma-diao, it can ONLY relate
to the 4-suited Ming Ma Diao, regardless how the 3-suited Non-MD and
the 4-suited Ming-MD may be linked in their past.

No wonder nothing came out of research for the past 10 years on origin
of mahjong. The focus has been on ONLY one place. Reject anything
outside the money signs of "Ming 4-suited Ma Diao" such as: Quote

1 Cash. Like the diagram of the taiji (grand ultimate).
3 Cash. Like the shape of the GEN (Creative) trigram.
6 Cash. Like the shape of the KUN (Receptive) trigram.
1 String. Like a hair pin.
5 Strings. Like the shape of the GEN (Keeping Still) trigram.
1 Myriad guan: Heaven's Clever Star.
2 Myriad guan: Heven's Heroic Star.
8 Myriad guan: Heaven's Void Star.
9 Myriad guan: Heaven's Retreat Star.
Hundred Myriad guan: Heaven's Criminal Star.
Thousnd Myriad guan: Heaven's Wounded Star.
Ten-thousand Myriad guan: Heaven's Supreme Star
Unquote.
+++++++++++
Researchers, to be relevant and correct, must refer to these suits
when talking about ma que origin, as stated above. Anyone disagrees
and argues persistently may be said to have behavioral problem.
++++++++++++++
That is how I analyze, interpret and understanding the post. Correct
me if I am wrong. Be specific in your accusation.
+++++++++++
Allan lee
Dec. 19, 2008

On Dec 19, 6:50 pm, mstanw....DeleteThis@talktalk.net wrote:
> It hardly need be pointed out that the previous poster's 'ideas' are
> repleat with glaring logical fallacies and appeals to the irrational
> notion of personal experience (when outside of the person's time
> frame) - instead of dated documentary evidence - as if it were a
> virtue.

Come down a notch from your scholarly level, Michael. Whaat is it your
are trying to say?

> When caught out by the translator's own testimony(via a poster to this
> forum) of the meaning of the original text, then denying the
> translator's expertise and integrity. When that fails, blatantly out
> and out denial by falling back on their own ignorance, as if that were
> also a virtue!

What are you talking about? Give it straight and be specific.


> There is also their denial in not knowing how to distort what others
> have said, even after they have ignored the many distortions when they
> are pointed out to them with the undistorted text.

Where, what, when? Don't just accuse people without factual evidence.
That is ungentlemanly conduct. You know that.
I doubt if I could distort by playing with words like you do.

> There is also their seeming inability in facing the hilarious
> contradiction when they deny the meanings of parts of a text that they
> cannot force into their baseless arguments, whilst simultaneously
> using other parts of the very same text to support those same baseless
> arguments.

As for baseless argument, I know of at least one. It is the Cash-less
argument. I mean more specifically, the Zero Cash and Half Cash that
were called "guo' or fruits.

> Some of their more common logical fallacies will be described - with
> examples from these posts - in due course.

Why not do it now? Why be so forgiving?
I can still learn yet.

> Finally, there is also their apparent memory loss, which may account
> for some of behaviour.
>
That could be. Lapse of memory is not uncommon for people of all age.
I am no exception.

> As has been said before, but it is important, the poster who is the
> subject of this post is not categorized with these failings because of
> his dissenting opinions, but because of the manner in which he behaves
> in topic discussions in this forum.

I am not sure about that, Michael. I sensed a need for you to guard
against dissenting opinions. I noticed a change of attitude in you
ever since I showed the following link which IMO relates mahjong to I-
Ching divination. I may be wrong.

http://www.taopage.org/iching/iching_symbols.html
+++++++++++++++
I will not be responding to you any more unless you talk sense and get
down to specific points. I owe my knowledge of Ma Diao to you.
Students can have different views on the same subject. That is not
new. Unless we can discuss with mutual respect, then there is no use
to continue.
+++++++++++++
Allan Lee
Dec. 19, 2008