1861 Diary w/ mahjong

Here is additional information about the diary mentioned in the
broadcast that I received from the contact that alerted me about the
broadcast:

Noguchi Kyouichiro, the founder of the world's first Mahjong museum in
Chibe, Japan - visited Ningbo Mahjong museum in Septemebr 2001, and
brought with him the diary of the British Consul General, FEB Harvey,
who was stationed at Ningbo in 1861. Harvey's dairy frequently refers
to Mahjong as 'Sparrow', and he repeatedly mentions all the rules of
the game. He also mentions that his Chinese teacher, from whom he
learned Mahjong, was named Chen Yumen. Chen Yumen's life is recorded
int he Chinese book entitled 'History of the Ying Shan County', which
says that he passed the imperial exam (third class) in 1849, and was
positioned at Ningbo. He could speak some English, and taught Harvey
how to play Mahjong.

This is verified at the Ningbo Mahjong museum - called Tianyu Library
- by Gong Feihui, the Deputy Chief of the Academic Research Committee.

Dan

On Sep 29, 5:38 pm, pa... RemoveThis @email.unc.edu wrote:
> Here is additional information about the diary mentioned in the
> broadcast that I received from the contact that alerted me about the
> broadcast:
>
> Noguchi Kyouichiro, the founder of the world's first Mahjong museum in
> Chibe, Japan - visited Ningbo Mahjong museum in Septemebr 2001, and
> brought with him the diary of the British Consul General, FEB Harvey,
> who was stationed at Ningbo in 1861. Harvey's dairy frequently refers
> to Mahjong as 'Sparrow', and he repeatedly mentions all the rules of
> the game. He also mentions that his Chinese teacher, from whom he
> learned Mahjong, was named Chen Yumen. Chen Yumen's life is recorded
> int he Chinese book entitled 'History of the Ying Shan County', which
> says that he passed the imperial exam (third class) in 1849, and was
> positioned at Ningbo. He could speak some English, and taught Harvey
> how to play Mahjong.
>
> This is verified at the Ningbo Mahjong museum - called Tianyu Library
> - by Gong Feihui, the Deputy Chief of the Academic Research Committee.
>
> Dan

Hello Dan. Thanks for this 'heads up'. Both Thierry and myself
researched Harvey way back in 2003. We managed to get some info from
the Foreign Office but there was no mention of a diary so its
existence is a big plus. We are now trying to find if the diary is in
the public domain.

I am trying to contact the MJ Museum to see if I can get photocopies
of the relevant pages.

I viewed the programme at the link provided. Some interersting titbits
of information in there - particularly the references to the presence
of possible evidence (Harvey) from which we may glean useful
information and inferences - when we can get our hands on it to see if
it is as robust as it sounds.

On Sep 26, 8:56 pm, pa....TakeThisOut@email.unc.edu wrote:
> A recent cctv9 broadcast featured mahjong. It can be viewed here:http://v..cctv.com/html/xintansuo/2008/09/xintansuo_300_20080923_1.shtml

A valuable clue! Thank you, Dan.

On Sep 26, 8:56 am, pa....TakeThisOut@email.unc.edu wrote:
> A recent cctv9 broadcast featured mahjong. It can be viewed here:http://v.cctv.com/html/xintansuo/2008/09/xintansuo_300_20080923_1.shtml
>
> What I found most interesting was the mention of an 1861 diary by
> British Consul Frederick (FEB) Harvey in Ningbo that apparently
> mentions being taught the game of mahjong (sparrow) by Chen Yumen (the
> broadcast mentions that Chen learned English as part of his
> education). Apparently the diary just gives dispersed references to
> mahjong and is not an attempt to detail the rules, history, etc, but I
> would love to know specifically what it does say. Has anyone on this
> forum seen the material from that diary? Is a copy of the material
> located at the Japanese Mahjong Museum?
>
> Dan
++++++++++++++++++++
I also found interesting is the story on the Ye-Zi [$BMU(B $B;R(B] game.

Ye-Zi or "Leaf" Little Leaves] had been told as a game named for a
piece of paper used for score keeping. The basis for that was Ye = $BMU(B
which could be a tree leaf or a page or a piece paper.

In the CCTV presentation, the word $BMU(B is shown with 3 parts, namely:

++ at the top,
$B@$(B at the middle and
$BLZ(B wood or tree at the bottom...

++ means ten and ten or twenty,
$B@$(B means generation(s) and
$BLZ(B means a tree...

$BMU(B was, as the story went, the name of a game. That game was given to
Emperor Taizong of the Tang dynasty. It contains an answer to his
question. The question was "how long a dynasty lasts?" The answer was
twenty generations but hidden in the name of the game.

So according to the broadcast story of CCTV, $BMU(B is more than a piece of
paper for score keeping as previously written elsewhere.
+++++++++++++++

Even more interesting is the mention of other "tile games" besides the
Liu Bo which was already in existence in 221 B.C. The fact is tile
games came long before paper cards.

Liu Bo was a simple tile game where 2 players cast dice to determine
how many steps to move ahead. The faster player wins. Other tiles
games were more challenging than Liu Bo according to the narrative.

However, I could not find from the CCTV story how the Leaf game was
played. I am not sure if it was a solid tile game or paper-card game.
Any one has the answers?
+++++++++++++

Cheers....al

On Dec 2, 5:51 pm, al <a....TakeThisOut@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
....
> Dan, I did not try to show the connection between MJ & I-Ching
> (Yijing) in my previous post.
> Are you making reference to other posts?
....
> Viewing with skepticism is justified in any case. The "same"
> skepticism may not be always practiced or practicable. Like, I mean
< not every hypothesis created equal. Right?
....

Al,

Are you looking to turn this thread into a discussion of semantics? If
so, then I am not interested. I’ll reply briefly this one time.

When I wrote “With those points in mind, let’s look at your latest
post:” I thought that it would be obvious that I was including other
posts of yours when I replied on Oct. 14. While I also had in mind
other threads, your earlier Oct. 3 post on this thread included these
terms: TRIGRAM(S), TAIJI, “CHANGES”, Book of Changes, etc. If these
were not references to your Yijing Hypothesis, then what were they?

Do I really have to explain my meaning when I used the following
phrase?
> I view your Yijing idea with the same skepticism that I use for the
> poem and sparrow ideas presented in the broadcast (and the other
> sparrow idea presented by you; the Taiping idea presented by myself…

I view all of the hypotheses with skepticism. That does not mean that
I view them as all being equally plausible! Yes, I view them all with
the same skepticism, but with varying degrees of plausibility, varying
degrees of supporting evidence, etc. How could this not be so? Do you
really think that someone could view various hypotheses with the
“same” levels of skepticism? I wrote “same skepticism” NOT “same
degree of skepticism” or “identical levels of skepticism”, etc!

I am still not particularly interested in replying to your posts, and
I am less and less interested in your Yijing hypothesis, so please
don’t look to me for discussions of it.

Dan

For any non-poster reading this thread, it should be noted that the 3-
suited 'Ma Diao' card deck referenced on page 55 of the Illustrated
Book of the Mahjong Museum (1999), is NOT an example of a Ming Dynasty
4-suited Ma Diao deck. The Museum book references 3-suited card decks
that the Museum author considers are examples of what the 4-suited Ma
Daio deck changed into during the Qing Dynasty. The Museum author
labels these decks as 'Ma Diao' to refer to the group from which he
considers they originated. The game of Ma Diao was played with a 4-
suited money deck of playing cards.

References by researchers on this forum to Ma Diao as a source for the
suit names are references to the Ming 4-suited Ma Diao deck and NOT to
any of the 3-suited, undated examples as shown in the Japanese MJ
Museum book.

Regards

On Dec 9, 12:34 pm, pa... RemoveThis @email.unc.edu wrote:
> On Dec 2, 5:51 pm, al <a... RemoveThis @ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> [..]
> Al,
> Are you looking to turn this thread into a discussion of semantics? [..]
>
No. Dan. There was need to clarify in what you stated in the last
post.

You said:
"> To me, none of those assumptions has any substantive supporting
> evidence. Other than possibly fitting your hypothesis better, I have
> not seen any evidence to support the ideas presented in your postings.
> Without addressing specifics of your other posts, I hope that you can
> see from the above why I cannot follow what you are trying to present."
End of quote.
+++++++++++++
I don't know what specific assumptions you refer to, so I provide
evidence to support whatever you think I have assumed. They are the
same evidence I have cited in my previous other posts. Of course they
are unlike the folklore and slang spoken in old novels that are not
explanatory but printed and historical.

Imagine. If the same I-Ching connection had been hinted in a book by
some historic figure some years ago, what would be your "level of
skepticism" then?

> Truly bewildered,
> Dan
+++++++++++++
For people who do not appreciate I-Ching, the concept is difficult to
grasp. Yin and yang can be symbolized by 2 lines and transform to 8
figures of 3-line combination to represent the universe and the myriad
things in it. Life and the universe and everything are changing all
the time, daily, yearly, life-time...
The game, Mahjong, is cosmological and philosophical. That is the
reason why its origin is still a mystery in the mahjong world. Players
do not know the symbols and do not understand the principles behind
the rules.

I can appreciate possibly many others are bewildered as well.
+++++++++++
Cheers....al

On Dec 9, 4:56 pm, mstanw....DeleteThis@talktalk.net wrote:
> For any non-poster reading this thread, it should be noted that the 3-
> suited 'Ma Diao' card deck referenced on page 55 of the Illustrated
> Book of the Mahjong Museum (1999), is NOT an example of a Ming Dynasty
> 4-suited Ma Diao deck.

The important point is that it was the design of one of the family of
Ma Diao cards.

Straightly speaking, the 4-suited Ma Diao, although played and
written about by Pan & Feng in Ming, could have been long in existence
earlier.
[..]
> [,,]. The game of Ma Diao was played with a 4-
> suited money deck of playing cards.
>
Correction: "string of cash" was Lo's own translation. The Chinese
text was $B:w(B, sou3, meaning (to ask, to demand, to extract [an answer,
as in divination].)

The symbol called Cash was an obvious mistake, because the 1-Cash was
a drawing " like " the taiji [yin-yang] diagram. Lo's translation said
so.

If the 1-cash is one taiji diagram, what would 2-cash' likely be? 2
taiji diagrams is a logical answer; 3-Cash then 3 taiji diagrams.

That is exactly what the Ma Diao set on page 55 of Illustrated Book of
the Mahjong Museum shows.

The Ming author of the Ma Diao manual took what the players called
those symbols based on their own slang and oral tradition. What were
really called "Zero Cash" and "Half Cash" ? The players did not know.

If the manuals had been written better and the drawings smaller, and
the translation interpreted clearer. Then "Cash" would have been all
taiji diagrams.

> References by researchers on this forum to Ma Diao as a source for the
> suit names are references to the Ming 4-suited Ma Diao deck and NOT to
> any of the 3-suited, undated examples as shown in the Japanese MJ
> Museum book.
>
> Regards
+++++++++++
Again, "1-Cash" was a misnomer. It was "like the diagram of the taiji
(grand ultimate)" as per translation.

I might add...the 3-suit deck of the Mahjong Museum on page 55 should
have been the reference for research.
++++++++++
Allan Lee

On Dec 9, 4:56 pm, mstanw....RemoveThis@talktalk.net wrote:
>[..]
> References by researchers on this forum to Ma Diao as a source for the
> suit names are references to the Ming 4-suited Ma Diao deck and NOT to
> any of the 3-suited, undated examples as shown in the Japanese MJ
> Museum book.
>
Perhaps the 4-suited Ma Diao deck have some of the answers to the
questions below.
++++++++++
For researchers on Ma Diao reference to 4-suited "money deck" , here
are some questions waiting for answers.

(1) Is the name Ma Tiao or Ma Diao?
(2) What does it really mean, one of the following?

Ma Diao = Horse Hang =Âíµõ
Ma Diao = Horse Drop =Âí µô.
Ma Tiao = Twin Lines = ŒIÌõ

(3) What is this about? "Zero Cash is supreme. Something empty is
ideal for storage and saving."

(4) How about this? " do not forget the empty. Emptiness forms the
base...This is why the forty cards were invented."

(5) Why is this "Void" in the following description? "The supreme,
Zero Cash... with a heading 'Void of one cash'."

Can anybody accept a "zero-dollar" bill?
If not, why would or should anybody accept "Zero Cash"??

(6) The "1-Cash" was said to be "like the diagram of the taiji (grand
ultimate)". Was it the taiji yin-yang diagram or just "like" it and
why?

All these 6 questions refer to material on 4-suited deck written by
Pan Zhiheng during Ming dynasty (1556-1622) on pages 88 and 89 in
English translation of The Playing-
Card Volume 31 Number 2.

(7) Where else do terms such as "supreme, emptiness, void, taiji
diagram, grand ultimate" etc. appear and what do they associate with,
infer or imply?

( Final question: if Ma Diao is related to Mahjong even remotely,
would they share something common in concept (like Void, Taiji
diagram, Ultimate, Emptiness, etc.) other than so-called "Cash-suited"
idea?
++++++++
P.S. Can the 3-suited Ma Diao deck on page 55 of Illustrated Book of
the Mahjong Museum answer some or all the above questions?
+++++++++++
Allan Lee

On Dec 9, 12:34 pm, pa....DeleteThis@email.unc.edu wrote:
> On Dec 2, 5:51 pm, al <a....DeleteThis@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> ...> [..]
> >[..]

Dan, you said:
"I really cannot follow your presentations concerning the possibility
of a connection between mahjong and the Yijing."
> [..]
My bit by bit "presentation" has failed. Now I will let the "evidence"
do the persuading.

Take a look at page 55, Photo 79 of Illustrated Book of the Mahjong
Museum.

A 3-suited Ma Diao set has all the YiJing divination connections,
written and pictorial, in clear view.

I don't know how anybody can miss evidence such as this. It is in 3
languages (Japanese, Chinese and English).

> I am still not particularly interested in replying to your posts, and
> I am less and less interested in your Yijing hypothesis, so please
> don’t look to me for discussions of it.
>
> Dan
+++++++++++
I have found the connection and evidence I have been looking for. I
need not to discuss with any one further, except to support my
hypothesis if needed.
++++++++++
Allan Lee
Dec.14, 2008

Any readers of this NG not in possession of the Japanese MJ Museum
book may find themselves inadvertantly confused regarding the use of
this book, with reference to discussions of MJ development.

Researchers posting to this group have made reference to the Ma Diao
FOUR-suited playing card DECK. This deck existed during the Ming and
partly into the Qing.

The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
various games during the Qing.

When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
3-suited deck.

There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.

There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards. That Family they name Ma Diao. It
is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK. Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
discussions on this NG.

As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.

On Dec 15, 7:58 am, mstanw....RemoveThis@talktalk.net wrote:
> [..]
> The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
> various games during the Qing.
>
So that is why there are similarities between the two. Most notably is
the "1-Cash. Like the diagram of taiji (grand ultimate)."

> When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
> they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
> 3-suited deck.
>
That is the problem. They have tunnel vision and fixation on Cash.
(Cash can be without square hole, copper , silver or bamboo disc).

> There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.
>
> There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
> belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards.
+++++++++++++++
There is at least one non-money deck which is the most relevant of
all. See pge 55, Photo 79.
++++++++++
That Family they name Ma Diao. It
> is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK. Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
> NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
> discussions on this NG.
>
This is to discredit whom? Any one who refer the 3-suited deck as Ma
Diao including the editors in MJM of Japan?

> As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
> Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
> origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.
+++++++++++++++++
Just the name, regardless of content makes it "wholly incorrect,
misleading and hence, irrelevant."

MJM Book calls the 3-suited deck on page 55, Photo79, a member of the
Ma Diao family. What if it is called Ma Niao? The name should not
discredit the contents.

Any respectable researcher in zoology study would look at either one
or compare both, a four-legged dog and a 3-legged dog when the vital
internal organs are of interest. A dog is a dog.

Saying a "Qing 3-suited deck" irrelevant is like a cast iron pot
("Ming 4-suited deck") calling a stainless steel deep-fryer useless
when their purpose is for cooking "Chicken Balls", a dish of the 20th
century.

After all, mahjong was only discovered by westerners in the 19th
century during the Qing dynasty. In term of timing, the "Qing 3-suited
deck", call it what you will, is more relevant to mahjong than the
"Ming 4-suited deck" hundreds years away.
+++++++++++++++
Cheers....
Allan Lee

On Dec 15, 12:58 pm, mstanw....RemoveThis@talktalk.net wrote:
> Any readers of this NG not in possession of the Japanese MJ Museum
> book may find themselves inadvertantly confused regarding the use of
> this book, with reference to discussions of MJ development.
>
> Researchers posting to this group have made reference to the Ma Diao
> FOUR-suited playing card DECK. This deck existed during the Ming and
> partly into the Qing.
>
> The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
> various games during the Qing.
>
> When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
> they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
> 3-suited deck.
>
> There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.
>
> There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
> belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards. That Family they name Ma Diao. It
> is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK. Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
> NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
> discussions on this NG.
>
> As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
> Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
> origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.

As an addition to the above clarification - it should also be pointed
out that NONE of the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
dated. Since they are undated, none can be used as examples of playing
card decks from before the earliest documented (dated) Ma Que
descriptions.

The only dated documented examples of a playing card deck - as dated
evidence for the suit names derived from money - come from a
translation of a late Ming card manual given by Dr Andrew Lo in the
Journal of the International Playing Card Society. (For those new to
this subject, this topic was discussed and explained on this NG with
input from Dr Lo as to the meaning of the manual text translated by
him.)